ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Welcome to This Being Human. I’m your host Abdul Rehman-Malik. On this podcast from the Aga Khan Museum, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world whose life, ideas and art are shaped by Muslim culture. 

NADIR NAHDI:

There's a new generation that has a very unique perspective to how they see themselves as young Muslims in the modern world. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS:

I am this wide-eyed girl. I'm like, I want it all, I want to experience it all.

GINELLA MASSA:

Everyone has a story. Sometimes you just have to find out what it is.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Like the poem that inspires this podcast, The Guest House, by Sufi poet Jallaludin Rumi, we’re talking to people who seek meaning and joy in work and life…regardless of what the day brings.

Today, model, influencer… and now sci-fi writer, Leah V.

LEAH V:

I never had access to Black authors or Muslim authors who wrote sci-fi or dystopian. I wanted to infuse multicultural aspects into the dystopian genre. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Leah V has just released her debut novel, The Union. It’s set in a future where Black and LatinX people have overthrown an oppressive white ruling class, and created a new society. In the American South, Black people rule and white people are the lowest class, alongside people of mixed background, called Impures. The story is told through the eyes of two characters: an Elite named Avi, who’s in line to rule, and an Impure named Saige, who saves her life. The story is hopeful, but at times, it’s also profoundly uncomfortable. 

That’s not exactly out of character for Leah V. She previously released an autobiography called Unashamed: Musings of a Fat, Black Muslim. That book talks about the struggles and trauma she overcame, before embracing her body, overcoming self-doubt, and becoming a model and influencer. Leah’s been involved in major campaigns for companies like Dove and FitBit, but she has also been unabashedly direct about the problems she sees in her own industry, around race and body size. 

She joined me from New York to talk about The Union and about her unique and inspiring career.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Leah V, welcome to This Being Human. 

LEAH V:

Thank you so much. That was the most iconic introduction I've ever gotten in my life, so I appreciate you for that one. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I appreciate you appreciating it. Leah, I want to start by talking about this new novel, The Union. But first, I wanted to see if you could read a passage that begins with this description of something called the hovertram. And just for our listeners, the person's voice who you are reading is someone named Saige, this lower class girl who is speaking to us, the reader. 

LEAH V:

Yeah, I could definitely read that for you. 

“The hovertram was a series of attached, bullet-shaped holes that floated over a double-railed track that led into the city's Square. Watchmen were posted everywhere, even inside the compartments. I'd noticed their increased presence as of late. I stood in the back of the hovertram and pressed myself against the window. No seats. Just body to body. The Union didn't think we deserved even the simplest of inconveniences. We moved so fast through the sky that the shiny steel structures - built by slave labor - whizzed by becoming blurred shapes. I closed my eyes. For just a moment, I wasn't there. I was somewhere else. I was with Ma again in some imaginary safe place that could never exist. Pleasant memories were a hot commodity these days. When I heard the ding again, I watched a herd of workers spill through the sliding glass doors of the hovertram. As for me, I was forced back into a dream-covered nightmare that was called the Square. Upper Residents lounged underneath large umbrellas, sipped artisanal red teas at cafes, and chatted away on wristcoms. A suburban city much cleaner and grander than the Subdivisions. They laid out blankets for picnics on the greenest grass I'd ever seen, under bountiful trees, so vivid that it looked like an oil canvas in one of those ancient texts.” 

Was I supposed to continue or was that the whole section? 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

No that's beautiful. 

LEAH V:

Okay.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Leah, you're painting the picture of a very complex, complicated and confusing world. And as readers, we're just beginning in these first paragraphs to grasp the enormity of what's happened to humanity and where humanity has arrived. This sounds like the novel of someone who is an experienced writer who's engaged in the genre for a long time. And yet this is your first novel and you've decided to tell this compelling story, which flips ideas of race and class and gender on its head through the lens of science fiction. Has Leah V always been a sci-fi fan? 

LEAH V: 

So actually yes. Before the memoir, Unashamed, which I wrote in a very angry time in my life, a very angsty time, I had wrote two...three, actually dystopian novels before that. So I'm actually a dystopian sci-fi writer. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

That's incredible. That's incredible. 

LEAH V: 

It just happened that my first book, people wanted to hear more about my life than my worldbuilding. And so I've always loved dystopian. I've always loved sci-fi. I love it to this day. I watch and read everything and anything that's futuristic. But it's interesting that when I was younger, you know, little baby Leah V, you know, Black Muslim living in Detroit, I never had access to Black authors or Muslim authors who wrote sci-fi or dystopian. And so I grew up with white sci-fi and dystopian, which caused a lot of identity issues, as you can imagine. And so when I wrote my first book at, I think I wrote my first novel at 17, I wanted to infuse multicultural aspects into the dystopian genre. And this came kind of out of that like anger that I didn't see myself in the future and that we were kind of erased in these in these genres, you know, those white stories for white people in the future. And so I wanted to disrupt that entire notion with The Union. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

In The Union you write about this world that's been segregated by race and class. And just like in the passage you just read, there is overcrowded projects called the Subdivisions. Then there's Upper Residents who live in this beautiful part of the city called The Square. And as you just told us, you're from Detroit, where you've experienced a city that's gone through convulsion after convulsion, reimagination, regeneration, recreation. And, you know, when you go to Detroit, you feel the similarly stark differences between neighbourhoods and parts of the city, the revitalized waterfront and other neighbourhoods where people have literally fled and it's boarded up. How much of that experience of growing up in an incredible city like Detroit fused itself into your vision for The Union? 

LEAH V: 

Yeah, definitely. I took from all of the projects, right? I'm pretty well-traveled. I've traveled all over the world and all over the US and to see the ghettos, you know, where, you know, the low-income Black people and Hispanics live, versus everybody else. Or how gentrification plays a role into, like you said, the revitalization of Detroit. And how it's just you go on one block and it looks like World War Three. And then two blocks over, there's like $9,000 apartments for white transplants coming from LA. And so I definitely took from the grunginess of the city of Detroit in some of the places I've either lived in or seen versus the juxtaposition of gentrification and privilege two blocks over. It's wild. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:  

This like theme of disorientation runs through The Union. And the book is driven by the experiences primarily of two characters, Avi and Saige. They're two characters that are so different from each other, but actually not so different from each other. What did these characters represent to you? Because we hear the story through their unique perspectives. 

LEAH V:

These characters are, I think, as most authors would say, very cliche, they're extensions of myself, right? I would say that it was actually hard writing Avi, because she's the opposite of who I am. Avi is like, who I kind of want to be in therapy. Like, that's Avi, like, very, like, you know, level-headed and likes to think through things. And she's sweet and wants justice. And then Saige on the other hand is me without therapy. She is wild and she gets punched in the face by men. She also punches men in the face. She is very gritty and raw and rough. She's surviving, not thriving. You know, like a lot of black women in America and abroad. So I think, you know, writing these two characters, I wanted to also have them have a common ground so they wouldn't be like too different. So they're both running away and running to something. But you definitely see the juxtaposition of they are so different, but then you’re like, okay, I can see where they kind of like meet in the middle.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

There's another compelling character in this book, which I have to mention, and I'm sure you've been asked about this character often, and that's the Administrator who is essentially a kind of a slave driver. She's around 300 pounds, rubs cocoa butter on her body and she yells orders to those who are enslaved. You write in the book, quote, "She had a coveted body type in the region. The curvier, the bigger, the better." It's striking that she's a large Black woman with a huge amount of power. And yet you've written her power and her exercise of power in a kind of a monstrous and savage way. And so it's a character that we're immediately drawn to, but also like we're trying to contend with. I want to know what Leah V was thinking about as she wrote this character. 

LEAH V: 

Yeah. So again, all the characters are about me. I'm such a narcissist. It's really crazy. I'm a Leo and I'm a narcissist. So literally, every character is an extension of me. I am over 300 pounds. I'm not tall like her, but I wanted to add a character that was something that kind of like would rub people the wrong way. I mean, honestly, the whole book will rub people the wrong way. Clearly, you've read it. But I wanted to create a character that defied what people see fat people as, right? So there's tropes of fat people. It's just like the funny fat friend, the sidekick to the skinny girl, you know, she's in the corner wearing black, she's demure. She's not a baddie. She's not barking orders. She gets what she can take. And I wanted to fight against that by creating this character that goes against all of that. She's 300 pounds. She's tall. In this world, the bigger, the thicker, the better. Like that is royalty. That is sex appeal. That is the beauty standard. So I wanted to flip everything that we know in this world and flip it on its head. And so, yeah, she's someone you're going to love to hate because she is definitely driving the slavery, but she's moisturized. She's a baddie. Okay? And she gets s*** done. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

There's no doubt, there is no doubt there's a gravitational pull around the administrator, right? Like the more you let us into her life and her actions, the more we want to know. Like there's a story there. There's a way that she's acting in the world. It is really compelling and like you said, also confusing because there's so many characters in this book that kind of compel us, draw us in. And then also we question our own kind of ethics and morals as we're drawn in, we're like, this is not a person doing good things. And Leah, I started thinking as I was reading it, I don't know if this book fits into a lot of the ideas that folks are talking about today in regards to something like Afrofuturism. Because Afrofuturism in so many ways imagines an alternative, beautiful, positive future for Black folk. And often those are utopian futures. And like you said, right at the top, this is a dystopian novel. Help me understand where this book fits in into that incredible Afrofuturist tradition. 

LEAH V: 

I just kind of like to - with all my characters, not just these ones - but I like to just kind of make my characters’ lives a living hell. It's really, it's very toxic. I'm a very toxic author. It's really, really sad. I would still say there's elements of Afrofuturism, right? There are still elements of like utopia society for a certain person, right? But I think that is definitely like, dang can you just let them live their lives and can they have some happiness? Like, you know, I try to sprinkle it in there, but it's fast-paced, raw, thriller and I want people to really just be on the edge of their seats. And I think you kind of said it before, in this novel, it's going to blur the lines of what's good and bad, right? I think we're always having that conversation, especially about cancel culture. It's like, okay, is this person redeemable? Did they make a statement? Where is this coming from? Do we just cancel them forever or do we cancel them until they do these steps? And with my book, it's like it kind of plays into that a little bit, like cancel culture. Who's redeemable, right? Who's salvageable in this world? And so you will have a hard time figuring out who to root for. You will really have a hard time. You'll be like, okay, is this person like really bad or does circumstances create a situation in which they become a bad person? 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Your mention of cancel culture is so fascinating. And it's also fascinating that it's through this lens of this dystopian sci-fi novel that all of these really contemporary, really present kind of ways of being are sort of being explained and discussed. Let's stop there for a moment, because I want to hear what Leah V thinks about some of the culture wars that we're right in the middle of and that you're right in the middle of. You've placed yourself right at the ground zero of this stuff right? Around issues of race, around issues of gender, around issues of body and what it means to be a Black body in spaces that were not created or facilitated to support or nurture those bodies or those identities. When we confront those things that are dangerous and harmful, do we cancel them forever or is redemption possible? 

LEAH V:

Yeah. I mean, like, I always tell people that I'm like a triple threat. You know, I'm fat, Black and Muslim. Like, you just pick one. Pick a struggle. It's me. And I think as I have been doing more activism, talking to more queer activists and trans activists and fat activists and Black women who've been doing it for decades, as I'm learning more about myself and about these…all these phobias, I am growing and the world is becoming a lot darker if that makes sense. It's kind of like once you know these things, and you know that this is what you're up against, you're like, can I win? Right? And so it's hard for me. A lot of people ask me in interviews  like, well, how do you…with all these levels of things and doors against you, how do you even still push forward? And it's just like as Black people, we have to compartmentalize. As people of color and marginalized bodies, you have to put stuff in a compartment and then move forward. You can't just like wallow in it all the time. And so, like, I'm blessed that I'm able to write my stories right? And I'm able to speak my mind and get paid to be myself because five or ten years ago wasn't like that. And so now I'm able to be like, okay, so now that I know these things, how can I push these topics, these wrongdoings, all this race wars and body wars and all this classist stuff and politics - how can I put this and include this in my work? Where it's digestible, where you're going to be uncomfortable, but also someone can pick up this book and be like, well, I don't know what it's about, but wait a minute, oh my god. And she's confronting things, but in a kind of entertaining way. Because some people don't want to have a face-to-face discussion about racism or fatphobia or Islamophobia. So in all the work that I do, whether it's like my writing or my speaking engagements, I always try to put some stuff in it that matters to me that are the things that I'm facing everyday. But I’ll tell you right now, my career has been very difficult. When you see me right now, you know, in this beautiful apartment in New York City, when you see me on commercials, you see me having a book on shelves, just know that it was 17 trillion times harder to be placed in the position that I'm placed in. And I've had to let go of a lot. I had to sacrifice a lot to be sitting here. But I know that me being the first of many to do these things and to bust down these barriers that there's other fat Muslims, marginalized bodies who've never felt worthy, who will be like, you know what, I see Leah V's book on the shelf. I see Leah V in that commercial. I see Leah V going to London, that it gives you a little push to fight against the system in your own way. So that's my hope with what I'm doing.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Is there a certain pressure that comes with that? You put yourself out there and it's your story, but now you know that there's all these people, all these human beings who have tens of thousands of stories just like your own, and they're kind of looking to you for inspiration and validation and conversation. 

LEAH V: 

So I will say it's very tiring. I think people look at my life and they think it's an easy thing. A lot of people are like, oh, it must be fun to just take pictures. And I'm like, sweetheart, that is 5 to 10% of what I actually do. There's a lot of back end so that people don't see and no matter how many times I try to tell people, this is not what you want. Like this is not like, stop glamorizing everything you see. Like, yeah, I got a two-book deal. I'm over here working. Okay. Yeah, I've been flewed out. I'm over here working. Like you don't see me having breakdowns in the bathroom before shoots or having body dysmorphic episodes, you know, on set. Like, people don't see those things. Or having my own mental breakdowns because my family is very interesting. And so like people don't see those things and it's just like sometimes it does get overwhelming and sometimes it does feel like I am drowning and flailing and I have no direction at all. And so it's just really difficult sometimes to be sometimes the beacon, because people always expect me to say something so grandiose and so inspirational. And it's just like I also need to be saved. Like, throw me a life raft, you know, I need inspiration. I need care. I need a hug. And so I'm very grateful that I'm able to share that with my community when I'm just like I want to quit everything, like throw the book in the trash, like throw my career in the trash. I don't want to see anyone for three days. Actually, longer than that. So, yeah, it's just interesting to have like these- and I love inspiring people and I love sharing my life and stuff like that. And I've gotten so many messages from brown women and trans women and like white women in Wisconsin who's like, yeah, fat, Black and Muslim! Like, I've gotten such an amazing response from everybody all around the world from different religions, and that honestly keeps me going. But I'm not going to lie and say that it's not exhausting. So I'm going to complain, but I'm not going to stop because like I am the first of many, I'll probably be in history books at some point because I'm the first to do a lot of things as a fat, Black American Muslim. And so I'm going to see how far we can push it. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

So much of your work and your positioning has been around the fashion industry and about modeling and about placing yourself and your body and who you are right out there for people to see and experience on your own terms. Take us back to that first professional photo shoot. What got you there and how were you feeling as you took that step into this world, which you would eventually come to analyze, disrupt and change? 

LEAH V:

Yeah. We're going all the way back. So I, you know, start modeling in 2013, not seriously, on Android phone, clearance rack items. And so I was married at the time to a Muslim man. 10/10 do not recommend getting married. So anyway, I was married young and I was trying to model with him. He was like, Muslim woman shouldn't model. You're a Muslim wife, you should be for me only. And I'm like, nah, I don't want to. And so when I got divorced and I told myself that if I ever got any money, I was going to buy a ticket to Europe and go model over there. Mind you, I had no agent, I had nothing, very little money. So I took a Eat, Pray, Love trip to London, right? When I tell you I didn't have anything, I didn't have anything. People were like buying me food in Europe. It was crazy. And so I met with this photographer in Paris. Her name was Velvet D'Amour and she was like one of the first like plus-size models to be on Gaultier's in Paris Fashion Week. She's a photographer in Paris and she's like, if you ever come to Paris, we'll shoot. I'm like, bet we're doing it. Like, I don't care. I'm going to be the first fat, Black Muslim American you shoot. So I went there scared as heck. I was like, I'm so afraid of everything. And she's like, girl, you have an amazing body. You need to show it. You need to be confident. And like we did a whole editorial in Paris and it was crazy. I had nothing. No money in my account. And to see those pictures now, it's like, wow, like you really took the leap. Like, you really didn't care. Like you said, I'm doing this with zero and I'm just going to jump in and dive into the deep end or you're going to figure out how to float. And so that photoshoot honestly gave me the confidence to be like, you can do this and you could do it well, you could actually do it better. You're fat. You're 5'4". You can't walk in heels. Like, you're not anything that the industry says is beautiful or worthy and you killed it. And I look at those photos all the time even now and I'm like, this is the beginning of Leah V. And she took a chance on me and we did it in Paris. Like, that's iconic. And so I think at that point I was like, oh, yeah, no you're that one. Like you are a threat. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

As Leah’s profile has risen, not everyone has embraced her. As an outspoken Black woman, she has often felt excluded by her Muslim community. 

LEAH V:

They don't want to work with me, they don't want to promote me, they don't want to see me. Like I am the epitome of what they do not want in the Ummah. And it's sickening actually. At one point I tried to integrate myself into the Muslim community as like a hijabi blogger. And, you know, I am Muslim. I might be on the other side on the spectrum, but I'm still very much so Muslim and my voice deserves to be heard as well. They were not having it. I was told that with one particular mosque, we won't say any names, but one of the girls wanted to have me come in and talk to the girls. The Muslim girls, they had a Muslim Girls group. And she took it to, I guess, the head elders, whatever. And they were like, she has a YouTube video about getting a Brazilian wax. That's not appropriate. Mind you, this video did not show anything about the privates. Nothing. It was literally like, okay, plus-size woman getting a Brazilian wax and stuff like that. How it felt, where did I go. Just like very informational. That was enough to not have me come talk to the girls. And so at that certain point, I was like, they will never accept me. I'm not, you know, that pastel-wearing, two and a half kids, husband with a moisturized beard, you know, making content while I'm praying…how that works, I don't know, because you shouldn't be doing that at all. Anywho [laughs] like, how are you taking pictures when you're praying? Is it on a timer? Is someone in front of you? Then it's not valid. I don't know. Anywho... We have so many issues that we just want to sweep under the rug and we don't want to talk about. And then I get blacklisted cause I want to have those conversations and they're like, oh, no, you're too much. Absolutely not. And so we're never going to get ahead. And get the respect that we need and deserve if we're going to continuously, like push away the people who have something to say. Like no, I'm sorry, like, I'm going to speak my mind. And that should be allowed because like, this is a Ummah right? It's a community. And it's really not, like I don't feel connected to my people at all, unfortunately. Well, the Muslim community. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:  

I mean, that's deep Leah and raw and honest. And I know some of those issues that you're talking about because when you enter into the space, you're not just entering into the space as a Black person, but as a woman as well. And given some of the recent toxic conversations around gender that's happening within our community, I totally feel and understand what you're saying. It's a kind of a difficult moment. And you yourself have called yourself a disrupter. You know, you're out there. You shake things up. You feel the moment, you act on it, you take the plunge and you see where things land. And you are not afraid to take up the fight when the matter comes to needing to be fight for. And so I think to myself, I’d like to hear about the times that Leah V has won. Was there a recent experience when you felt most like yourself? Was there a recent experience where you felt like, this is where I belong?

LEAH V:

I've definitely had like a couple actually, but I think the most recent was the Fitbit commercial that I did. I got this call for Fitbit. Didn't know it's going to be a whole national commercial, And they flew me out to, like, LA, they had a whole dive team. I was like a hijabi on a surfboard. And when I was out in the water, like, scared for my life cause I thought it was sharks out there because I was faux surfing. I was fighting for my life to stay on the surfboard, right? And I was like looking at all the surfers like surf around me. And the water was glistening. I had, like, a white man in the back hold me down, holding me so I wouldn't fall off and like all these, like, cameramen. And I was like, you really made it. It was amazing. And like I got like a flood of people who were like, was that you on that surfboard commercial? I saw you on Hulu and Netflix and HBO. Like it was literally like a whole thing. And people were sending me thousands of messages and screenshots of the commercial, and I'm like, yeah, it's me on the surfboard. And so I was like, okay, you're on to something here. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

So, I mean, you're in the world. You're inspiring people. You're doing your thing. What's inspiring you right now? Is there something that you're reading? Is there something that you're seeing? Is there an individual that you're following? Something that's really feeding and nourishing who you are and the work that you do. 

LEAH V: 

Right now I've been on this very much so a Black memoir and Black dystopian and sci-fi kick. So I have been like basically getting books written by Black people and just reading them because I never had access when I was younger. So that's really been helping me just a lot by like reading about people who look like me and had the same lives as me. And reading about their lives and how they kind of overcame it and how they have become authors or have become, you know, models and moguls and stuff like that. So I've been definitely reading a lot about that. And it can be just something simple, like somebody I found on the street or something like that. We just like talking randomly because, you know, New York. We just talk to anybody and we have a whole conversation and walk away as if nothing happened. And so I love hearing other people's stories. It fuels me and I find myself talking about myself less as I'm getting higher up the Instagram food chain or writing more books. I find myself wanting to hear other people's stories and inspired by sometimes the mundane, like those little wins that people are like, oh, it's not like your win. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about your win because I need to hear this and I don't want to hear about anything that I'm doing. So that has been very inspiring for me, is reading, you know, Black authors and dystopian authors and just talking like regular people and hearing how they took a shower that day because it was hard for them and they didn't bathe for like three days. And I'm like, oh, this is great. I love this.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:  

Leah V, who or what would you like to welcome into your guest house? 

LEAH V:

Contentment. If that's a word. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

It is most certainly a word. Tell me what that word means to you. 

LEAH V: 

Because I feel like sometimes I go overboard with wanting to prove myself. You know, being a fat, Black Muslim, you have to always level up and tap yourself and do more and do better. Like I can't just get away with like alabaster mediocrity. That doesn't work for somebody like me. And I think sometimes I get caught up in trying to top myself and be more grandiose and do more and do more and get more without kind of sitting in the space and being grateful. So that's what I want to welcome into my house is contentment. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Leah V, this has been amazing and I'm in your gratitude. Thank you so much for sharing and being present with us on This Being Human. 

LEAH V: 

Yes, thank you for having me. This was so fun. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Thank you for listening to This Being Human. Leah V’s book is out now and it’s called The Union.

This was our last episode of season 2. But don’t worry, we’ll be back in the spring with a whole new season of programs for you, with more brilliant guests like Leah V. In the meantime, we have almost 50 episodes in our back catalog now. So you can catch up on them while you wait for the new season to drop. 

This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. 

Our Senior Producer is Kevin Sexton. Our Associate Producer is Hailey Choi. Our Executive Producer is Lisa Gabriele. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Original music by Boombox Sound.

Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions. Shaghayegh Tajvidi is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.

This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum, one of the world’s leading institutions that explores the artistic, intellectual and scientific heritage of Muslim civilizations around the world. For more information about the museum go to www.agakhanmuseum.org

The Museum wishes to thank Nadir and Shabin Mohamed for their philanthropic support to develop and produce This Being Human.

Leah V made her name as a Black, Muslim, plus-size model. She has worked on major campaigns for companies like Dove and Fitbit, while also being outspoken around issues she sees in the industry. Now, she’s also a sci-fi author. She recently released her debut novel, The Union, a dystopian thriller that turns contemporary notions around race and body size upside down. She talks to AR about her love of sci-fi, her inspiring career, and about having difficult conversations.

Quotes:

"I never had access to Black authors or Muslim authors who wrote sci-fi or dystopian. I wanted to infuse multicultural aspects into the dystopian genre"

"Black Muslim living in Detroit, I never had access to Black authors or Muslim authors who wrote sci-fi or dystopian. And so I grew up with white sci-fi and dystopian, which caused a lot of identity issues."

"As people of color and marginalized bodies, you have to put stuff in a compartment and then move forward. You can't just like wallow in it all the time."

"Black authors and dystopian authors and just talking regular people and hearing how they took a shower that day because it was hard for them and they didn't bathe for like three days. And I'm like, oh, this is great. I love this."

Learn more about Leah Vernon and the episode:

• Follow Leah on Instagram
• Purchase a signed copy of Leah's book, The Union
• Visit Leah's website
• Learn more about Leah's book, Unashamed: Musings of a Fat, Black Muslim