This Being Human Transcript

Episode 11 – Tanya Muneera Williams

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

My name is Abdul-Rehman Malik. I’m canvassing the world for the most interesting people, to hear about their journeys, their work, and what it means to be alive in the world today. And perhaps nobody has captured that experience, of being alive, better than the 13th-century Persian poet and Sufi mystic Jalaluddin Rumi in his poem “The Guest House.” 

FEMALE VOICE: 

This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival. A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

So welcome to This Being Human. A podcast inspired by Rumi’s words and motivated by all those who carry that message forward in the world today. Today, poet and MC Tanya Muneera Williams. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Thinking about Malcolm X, who is Malcolm X? And I wasn't sure who he was, but I knew that I wanted to be whatever he was, you know? And so, I explored various different things. And then when I found out that, like, Muslims pray five times a day, I was like, five times a day, I don't know if I could do that! 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

A few years ago, Tanya Muneera Williams wrote an op-ed for The Independent, titled: “I’m a Black female Jamaican hip-hop rapper — and I converted to Islam." The themes of race, womanhood and spirituality are a big part of Tanya’s work — both as a poet and as half of the hip-hop duo “Poetic Pilgrimage.” She’s also an educator and a contributor to the popular BBC Radio 2 segment “Pause for Thought.” Tanya was born in Bristol, England. She grew up in her mother’s church, but converted to Islam as a young adult, at a time when tensions were high for Muslims living in England. I sat down with Tanya Muneera Williams to hear about her spiritual and artistic journey. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Tanya Muneera Williams, I am so happy to have you join us on This Being Human. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Thank you for inviting me. I'm really happy to be here. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Tell us about your name. Tanya Muneera Williams.

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

My birth name is Tanya Samantha Williams. I was thinking about changing my name. So when I converted to Islam, I was given the name Muneera. I love the name. I was like what does it mean? They told me: she who holds the light. I was like, wow, that's something I would like to be, so I really love that name and at one point I was thinking about changing my name by default and then, just experiencing Islam and people saying, oh, you haven't changed your name properly yet? You know. I was like, no, actually, there's something — I want to hold onto the name that my mother gave me. So I definitely do use the name Muneera and like a lot of my friends call me Muneera and I'm quite comfortable with that, but I also use the name Tanya and it’s also nice to go into Muslim spaces and use Tanya and go into non-Muslim spaces and use Muneera and just disrupt that a little bit. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK NARRATION: 

Disrupting and defying expectations is a driving force in a lot of Tanya’s work. This includes her hip-hop group Poetic Pilgrimage. She and her creative partner Sukina Abdul Noor are both converts to Islam. Two Black women onstage in hijab, rapping. Their performances are captivating. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I want you to take us backstage. What is it like for you in those moments just before you go on to the show? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Sometimes I feel like I have many people living inside of me. I'm definitely, extremely nervous. I'm definitely excited as well. Most of the times I'm excited. I was always curious about who would book us, you know, what is it about people that want to see, particularly if it's not a Muslim audience. Like who wants to see this Black Muslim woman wearing the hijab and who cares about what I have to say, you know? Sometimes I hear in my head this really just doubting, like, you know, are you good enough? Do you have enough? But then there's this voice inside of me that's like, no, I'm here. I'm supposed to be here. This isn't an accident. So, so many different things happening in one moment, which is a little bit scary, but also, I'd say a thrill I guess. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I've seen you step on stage dozens of times and it's that last emotion that you describe that I experience. It's really that you belong. And is there a moment when you move from doubt to belonging on that stage? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

I think it's probably about two lines in. Recently I did a TEDx talk and again, I didn't have much time to rehearse. And I was supposed to just be performing. And in the last moment they were like, oh, we want you to say something as well. I was like, okay, oh my gosh, I'm not prepared. All of these different thoughts came into mind and then I could see it when I watched the video back. I literally see, ah, she's clicked in, she realizes that this is her stage, that she is supposed 

to be here, you know. And people can see it, but actually, it adds to dramatic effect, if that makes sense. It adds to that sort of like, building up to this sort of momentum, so it works, it definitely works. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK NARRATION: 

Tanya grew up in Bristol, a port city in Southwest England. The city is known for its rich music scene — in particular as a major breeding ground for trip hop and drum and bass. It’s also a culturally diverse city, with a complex political history. All of these influences ended up shaping Tanya’s identity. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Let's go back to growing up in Bristol. And tell me about the influences you heard and saw at home that made you fall in love with music. What would your parents have on their sound system that spoke to you, that attracted you? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

It's so interesting, you know, because, like, the sort of music that my parents listened to was almost like a cross between reggae and country music, right. So, I wasn't really interested in that sort of music. I think it was my older brothers. It was their music. So, it would be like your Burning Spears as well as like Michael Jackson and, you know, Kool and the Gang, all of these various different things. And also, like, Bristol is, still, but back then was very, very, very like influenced and was very instrumental in sort of like sound system culture. My brothers would go to sound systems. So like a lot of sound system mix tapes, of course, you know, your Bob Marley, you know Abyssinian, Burning Spear, all of these different sorts of songs, you know, and of course, there was like, you know, pop music at the time. And then Pirate Radio station was a big thing as well. So I was lucky enough to be able to hear various different forms of music — particularly in thinking about music widely associated with Black culture. So, house music, you know, drum and bass, my cousin is Roni Size, you know, so like, I remember going to his house and hearing this drum and bass sort of like music emerging. I remember the creation of drum and bass, you know. So many different things. I'm influenced by so many different forms of music. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Tell us a little bit about that sound system culture. What does that look like? What is a gathering around a sound system… look like and feel like? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Okay, so there is a center in Bristol called the Malcolm X Center. The center is, but was particularly back then, the hub of everything. So, it is a center in the area called St Paul's. And it has a red, gold and green flag with Malcolm X's face painted on the front of it. You go up some steps leading to it is in this old sort of church building. And you go in and it's just this community hall. It's nothing fancy about it. Then slowly, people will start to come into this sort of arena. And you may have like a few people on the event. So, say, for example, you may have Qualitext, you know, you may have, like, I don't know, Ghetto Force or another sound system. And they'll 

be clashing, going backwards and forwards, you know, with tracks, with records. Twelve inches, seven inches. People would gather. We hear a song, you know, and it will be quite intergenerational as well. You know, you have people of different ages there. Darkened room, you know, smoke blowing, that's essentially what a sound system… experience of a sound system. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Bristol has such a unique history, doesn’t it? And I wonder, beyond the musical influences and that amazing scene that you've just described, what was it like growing up in Bristol, in the, in the 1980s generally? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

First of all, just to say that Bristol is like — or was the heart of slavery in England. England as a whole is a country that has benefited from slavery, that has its wealth as a result of slavery. But looking at the sort of main port cities, Bristol was definitely one of the more dominant ones. Going back to this area, St Paul's, you know, I think most Jamaicans at some point have settled in that area or at some point has lived in that area. And so you have these really big houses, you know, three, four story houses, that probably belonged to like slave owners and people who have really benefited from the wealth, right. And now all of a sudden, they've become dilapidated and then migrants are moving into these places. Back then these were the type of places. Now these areas become demonized because of the people who live there, because of essentially Jamaican people. We had a lot of issues with drugs, you know, that was coming in. And so, our community was just demonized on radio, on television, in newspapers, not just locally, but nationally. St. Paul’s, St Paul's — this was the thing that you was always hearing. And so, growing up, I knew that I was from an area that was seen as a rough area, you know, but you're just a kid, right? And when you were a kid, you’re just riding your bike or you’re just playing. And so, you have no awareness of it and you have no awareness of the fact that you can't go to particular areas because people will look down on you. Even when I was growing up, the NF National Front movement was still very much alive and kicking and there were literally areas you could not go into. Me and my brothers have been chased down many a time, had to get out of situations where we had to ride our bikes as fast as we can, you know, cause it was unsafe for us. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

And the National Front was a, was a racist organization. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Yes, that's right. There was a lot of also, police, like that tension between police and, you know, the communities. And that's still present right now, you know. Bristol has a deep issue with race that it’s not prepared to admit. It's not prepared to look at and to acknowledge. And so on the surface, you know, you hear about Bristol and Bristol is a cool city, right? You hear about Bristol. People are like, oh, you're from Bristol. Wow, it's so cool. The home of Roni Size, the home of Portishead, Massive Attack. You know, these new sound systems, these emerging different things, you know, all of these exciting things about Bristol. Yet if you just scratch the 

surface, you can smell the racism. You know, we have shopping malls named after slave owners or the route that they took, you know, and no one's prepared to have these conversations. So, Bristol is also a city that is deeply divided. It's one of the most divided cities in the UK. There's deep issues that we need to deal with that we haven't dealt with. And until we're able to have a conversation with race, it won't get dealt with.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

In June of 2020, shortly after I spoke to Tanya, Bristol residents took to the streets as part of the global protests following the killing of George Floyd. Protestors pulled down a statue of the slave trader Edward Colston, who trafficked tens of thousands of Africans to the Americas.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Muneera, I want to also explore your, your early spiritual life and particularly what was it like to go to church with your mother in those days? What do you remember about church and your mother's place in it? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Just to say: my mother is a remarkable woman. She is everything that I would like to be. You know, she is a deeply caring woman. She's a giving woman. She is a highly spiritual woman. And she doesn't even know it. And so, every Sunday in Jamaican communities all around the 

world there are vans that come to people's houses on Sunday morning to pick up the kids, essentially, to bring them to church. And so, as a young person, I didn't like going to Sunday school because it was always on at the time that cartoons were on on Sunday. So it would interrupt my cartoons and I didn't like going to Sunday school, but there was something about going to church with my mother in the evening, which I did like. I was probably one of the only few children there, but it was something about seeing people 100 percent giving themselves in worship and giving themselves in devotion to something which they knew was greater. It's about seeing a community that is going through hardship, learning the ways to, you know, almost rebuke this hardship, and in their being, in their existing, in their singing out loud, in their praising out loud, in their calling on names, in their speaking in tongues you know, they were resisting the system. They were the resistance, you know. I think about the fact that, like, the church didn't just operate as a place where you go and you worship. It was very much a place where it was a network. It was a means for people to save money. It was a means for people to socialize. It was a means for people to gather and to have this sort of like release of the everyday stresses. But also, my mum used to hold monthly prayer meetings. These prayer meetings were the most beautiful thing that you can witness. You would have people come in, they would bring their cakes, you know, smile. Hi. Very mild, respectable, people coming in. And then half an hour later, everyone is praying at the top of their voices for the people who are sick in the community, for the people who are ill. Everyone knows scripture to some degree and has their own understanding of what the scripture means. Women would cry their eyes out because they know in their bones that there is a god because there's no way, you know — and maybe, again, maybe they weren't thinking this, but it seemed like their DNA knew there's no way that they could come from the history which they come from and be here and still be thriving so that 

was my first experience of witnessing prayer and witnessing power. You know, that was my first introduction to spirituality. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

When did you first begin taking an interest in Islam? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Yeah, so I mean, my mum and what the church did for me was very much root me in the fact that there is greater than me, right? There is something that is greater than me. There's something that is holding the earth. There's something that is sustaining me, there is something that is in favor of me. And so I really appreciated that, but I guess getting older, you know, growing up, from moving into my teen years, the conversation about race wasn't something that really was had, you know, in church. Trying to understand my place as a young person, as a young Black person being brought up in this city, that is just shrouded in racism, that has reminders on a daily basis, and not just physically, but energetically as well. I think to some extent, like most migrant communities, there's a sort of expectation from the people who move here that, you conform, you don't stand out, you be respectable, you know? You act in a particular way. But when the children are born here and we're like, no, but we're being treated wrongly, you know, I needed to be able to have that conversation about race. Malcolm X was very prominent in my life. And from, you know, reading the book to watching the film to reading the book again, to have a nation of Islam come to the city, there was something about Malcolm that I liked. I liked his character. And, you know, thinking about Malcolm X, who is Malcolm X, this is a question, you know, like who is he, is he Nation? Is he, Sunni Muslim? Who is he? And I wasn't sure who he was, but I knew that I wanted to be whatever he was, you know? And so I explored various different things. And then when I found out that, like Muslims pray five times a day, I was like, five times a day, I don't know if I could do that! So I was like, okay, put that to a backburner. And also, like in Bristol, thinking about Islam, Islam was a very South Asian religion. I didn't even know if I could convert to Islam. I then tried like various different ways and means of spirituality. And then people around me started converting to Islam. But still, I wasn't convinced. I was like, why are these people converting to this religion? So, I then started doing research about Islam. A lot of it to have a point is to say, well, maybe this isn't a religion because A, B, C or D, but then I was like, wait a minute, am I... am I sort of falling in love with this religion? And yeah, that's what more or less happened. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

How big a decision was this, especially in regards to the way people reacted around you, your mom, your family, that incredibly rich community that you've described in Bristol? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

I converted to Islam when I moved to London. So I think that made it slightly easier. And so it was a big decision for me, but not so much because of the community that was around me, because by this time I had left Bristol. But I think what made it a really big thing for me was, probably, why was it, why- sorry, mum, I'm having a, I'm having a conversation... Could you 

keep it down a bit, please? Could you keep it down a touch, please? Thank you. Sorry, my mum, she sings a lot — she’s singing in the background. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

No problem. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

So my co... mum. I'm in here. [Laughs] Sorry, I’m sorry. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

No, no, don't apologize. We don't, can’t apologize for our mothers, man. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Very true. Very, very true. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

They got, they could walk in on anything they want, they can do whatever they want. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

That’s so true, my mum’s the only one who could get me out of prayer, I’m like, yes, mum? 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

[Laughs] Exactly. Exactly. When we were growing up, it was like, you don't break your salat for anything. But honestly, when, when you hear that tone in your mother's voice... 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

It puts more of the fear of God into you than… than being on the prayer mat. [Laughs] 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Yeah! Like mothers are like messengers from God. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

So thinking about my conversion to Islam. It was a big decision. I can't deny that it was a big decision, you know, like converting to a new religion or a new way of life. But I was seeking, you know. And as a seeker going from various, different things, it felt natural to me in that moment. So it was a big decision but being away from Bristol, being around, and seeking out people who were Muslims, seeking out things, and also music made that actual journey easier as well. I think like listening to Mos Def, listening to, like, Black Star, Talib Kweli, I didn't realize but like, actually it made Islam feel more familiar. But, I think as the time went on and I was a Muslim, that's when I realized how big a decision it was. I didn't know how my parents would react because I was always seeking, I was always looking for something. I was like, oh, mum, I'm this, 

oh mum I’m that. I’m, you know, she thought it was rejecting, like everything that she had taught me, all of the values that she had instilled in me. Plus, at that time, you know, I converted in 2005, which was the, you know, I converted three weeks before the 7/7 bombings, you know. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK NARRATION: 

On July 7th, 2005, four suicide bombers attacked London’s transit system. 52 people were killed and over 700 were injured. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack. This was followed by an increase in hate crimes against Muslims in the UK. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

And, so at that time, it was a scary time to be a Muslim, even though for myself, I didn't know Islam in any other sort of experience. But from people around me, I can tell that it was a very scary time. And also, for those people who loved me, who weren't Muslims, they could not understand why would I want to be a part of this religion which seemed to be so violent, you know? Which seemed to be so backwards that was being portrayed as being backwards and they didn’t treat their women well and all of these various different things. And so contending with that and how people saw me, that was very difficult. And losing friends, that was difficult because, I would host parties, you know, we would host parties and people will come and enjoy. But then when we converted to Islam, it was like, just, you know, didn't see anyone there. So that was difficult. And then contending with the whole fact just to be truthful like being a Black woman, you know, and a Muslim, there was almost this thing where… a sort of expectation that you should be ashamed of your past, you should be ashamed of your culture and where you come from, where for me, my culture, my past brought me to this point. I remember once going to a mosque and someone said, sister, where are you from? And I was like, oh, I'm from Jamaica. And she was like, oh, never mind, you're Muslim now. And that person was trying to be nice, but it felt vile in my mouth. It felt vile and violent, actually. I was like, well, what are you trying to say about Jamaica, this island which you just associate with like weed smoking? You probably don't know that it has the most churches per square miles. Right? You don't know about the deep rooted spirituality, about the Muslims who were there and hid their Islam, you know. That person doesn't know, was just judging the island based on popular culture. I feel nervous and apprehensive sometimes when I'm going to mosque, you know, for a while I did not go to the mosque, you know. But I think through finding a spiritual path, because I am spiritually inclined, through finding, like, I guess Sufism and the tariqa that I'm a part of, that has really settled my soul. And not because of the tariqa that I follow is based in West Africa. It's got nothing to do with Blackness it has got to do with just the awareness of humanity, the awareness of just like treating everyone equal. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK NARRATION: 

A tariqa is a living spiritual community that aims to help the seeker draw close to the divine. In the language of Islamic Sufism, a tariqa is a formal spiritual path to divine knowledge, usually grounded in the teachings of spiritual guides from the past. There are many tariqas around the world, each with its own methods for seeking ultimate truth. It took some time for Tanya Muneera to find hers. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

After embracing Islam and feeling that initial, ah I'm a part of something, and realizing that this is where I'm supposed to be, this is where I feel comfortable, I wanted more. I wanted to connect more. I didn't want to just do the actions. What is the purpose of me doing the actions? Why am I doing the actions? So, yeah, great. We can pray, but if I'm just doing movements, then it's not important. If I'm just hungry during Ramadan, then it's not important, you know, if I'm going to be away from food then let it be for good reason. And so joining a tariqa, finding this tariqa allowed me to find sort of like, purpose and reason for what I was doing. 

AMIRALI ALIBHAI 

Hi, I’m Amirali Alibhai, head of performing arts at the Aga Khan Museum. From Qawwali, to Iranian classical music, and from Arab jazz to flamenco, there is something for everyone at our museum without walls. Our live arts programming is central in our mission to connect cultures and people through the arts. Discover something new or enjoy a familiar performance. Go to agakhanmuseum.org/museumwithoutwalls or find us on YouTube. Now, back to This Being Human. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Tanya, it would be a shame for me to end without asking you to share some of your work with us, some of your spoken word with us. Would you mind sharing a piece with us today? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Sure. I'm going to share a piece called Rakhi. I was recently asked to write this as a commission with the English Touring Theater, and it is about healing. It is about pain. It is about coming to terms with things. And just, yeah, it's about so many different things. But here we go. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Rakhi, where are you? It's the room that glows whenever outside is cold and within it there is a bed. I'm lying on this bed with a blanket which covers me up to my navel. My mouth feels weighty and metallic again. I've lost my speech again. The boulders are in the back of my throat, constricting my truths again. Only air can get through and even then, it's limited. My tongue is blistering. My TH's are pronounced while the rest of my words lack clarity, the music is a blur. I can only hear it and normally I can see it. Every single colour blossoming, vibrating at different rates, bending and bouncing in different directions. My chest is compressed and calcifying. One, two, three. There you go. The moths are waging war on my insides. Do you have any idea what it feels like when millions of moths identify a source of light but there is only space in your stomach for two or three? No wonder my belly is burning. Where are you? It's a room that glows whenever outside is cold. And within it there is a bed. I'm lying on this bed with a blanket which covers me up to my navel. And the blanket. The blanket. The blanket is brown with a thick cable stitch, with a thick cable stitch. It's possibly crocheted. Definitely not machine made. Yak, angora, mohair maybe. I'm conscious of the fact that I don't remember if I would normally lay on my belly or my back. I feel like I need a cushion and maybe he can tell because he slips one under my neck. I feel like I need a cushion and maybe he can tell because he slips one under my neck anyway. If I was to guess I would say this is a different type of war. It's much 

softer to the touch and my body is warming up. He has just placed his hands on my shoulders and the only way I could describe it is love. His hands are the lanterns which are holding me in sync, soldering the pieces of me that never spoke up when others told their versions of stories. 

My keloids are copper, bronze, gold, not like the metallic of my mouth. This is more precious. More luster, more royal, more diamond mines in South Africa, more charity chestnut colored coffee beans buried in the belly of stone fruit in Blue Mountain, Jamaica. More date palms in 

Algeria. And Silk Route to China. The boulders are breaking. The moths have departed. Where are you? It's a room that glows whenever outside is cold and within it there is a bed. I am lying on this bed with a blanket which covers me up to my navel. The blanket is brown with a thick cable stitch bedded in the middle of it. Mohair maybe. My body is a lantern warming everything up, including his hands on my shoulders. I am the source of light, the thing that glows whenever outside is cold. This is a process I have to go through whenever I think about you. I'm struggling to get over. I can't deny it's gotten a lot better, but I'm not at the point that I'm ready to forgive and tell this thing that has affected this all. It creeps in the body just like you. Subtle at first, just like you. Have us calling up our loved ones, the ones we don't speak to too often. You once were my loved one. I don't think my love has gone hence me calling just to say hi. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Tanya Muneera Williams, what is This Being Human to you? 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

This Being Human to me is island culture. It is people coming to a place at different times, people leaving their print, their mark on this place, people having different experiences, people looking different, seeing different. It is sitting down having to try to understand somebody else because that person is actually just like you, we just don't know it yet. That's what it is to me. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Tanya Muneera Williams, thank you so much for making time to speak to me on This Being Human. 

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS: 

Thank you so much. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK NARRATION: 

This Being Human is an Antica production. Our Senior Producer is Pacinthe Mattar. This episode was written by Kevin Sexton. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Production assistance by Sydney Bradshaw. Original music by Boombox Sound. The Executive Producers are Kathleen Goldhar and Lisa Gabriele. And Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions. This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum, one of the world’s leading institutions that explores the artistic, intellectual, and scientific heritage of Islamic civilizations around the world. For more information about the museum visit www.agakhanmuseum.org.

The Museum wishes to thank Nadir and Shabin Mohamed for their philanthropic support to develop and produce This Being Human.

Tanya Muneera Williams is a poet and member of the hip-hop duo Poetic Pilgrimage. She talks about her childhood in Bristol, England, the city’s rich music scene, and the spiritual journey she took from her mother’s church to her conversion to Islam.